Subramanium Swamy Interview

I am reproducing the interview here from the above blogpost just for my reference and also to keep the content alive and accessible even if the original is taken down.


Source: http://mindmoodsandmagic.blogspot.in/2017/10/law-is-instrument-to-keep-government-in.html



[‘Law is an instrument to keep the Government in check. Fear of Law is not good. Respect the law of the land. Love the laws of our country’ shared Subramanium Swamy today at the Dinanath Mangheshkar Hall in a public talk on “My Legal Pursuits” to a jam packed audience organized by the Prabodhan Manch, Vileparle. The Talk was Presided by Mrugank Paranjpe the C.E.O  of  M.C.X. Dr Swamy, in his own inimitable humorous style exhorted the audience to use the law to bring change.  Lucky to meet him before his talk and after during an informal lunch he answered a series of questions related to  Politics, Stress, motivating the youth of the country and his personal life changing moments. Excerpts of my personal conversations and his terrific lecture are here for all of us to read ………]




What motivates you, Subramanium Swamiji to crusade against issues across decades even today at the young age of 78?

 Once while travelling across the country in the 70’s I found people gathered and found that the Shankaracharya of Kanchi was around. I was curious and went closer. He beckoned me and that was a life changing moment. Chandrashekarendra Saraswati told me many things that touched my life. A man of few words he spoke then to me for two hours. He said that never go after a post. Posts will come after you. And I was elected 6 times to the parliament without a rupee spent. He told me then ,never to break relations with two countries i.e. Israel and China. By the way the Chinese actually sent me melted ice in a bottle from the Kailash Manasarover a couple of days back. The Shankaracharya also told me that Soviet Union will split and he predicted it a decade before it actually happened.  Today the pro-china communists hate me in India but I have no issues with China and they have no issues with me. I have been motivated by this Shankaracharya and I chant the mantra given to me by him. I am also inspired by many saints especially Shri Dayanand Saraswati . I practice yoga,pranayama and do a lot of asanas every day to remain fit. A Tamilnadu Member of Parliament once came and told me long ago that I am in the hit list of the L.T.T.E. I looked straight at him and said that Prabhakaran is also in my hit list. I am not scared of my life. The jihadis are after me too. Longevity is decided by God but health is in our hands. I am Vegetarian and do not drink alcohol.


What can energize the youth of the country?

Indians live with the fear of future tremendously. One can never get energized with the fears of the future.  Work towards your conviction. Don’t care about the consequences. Work for a goal. Achieving the goal is not your right. Right to act is your right. Criticism results in a lot of stress. Don’t bother. Be on the task. I transfer the stress to all others. American children ask a lot of questions but Indian kids are made to shut up after a couple of questions by their parents.



What about our children?

Indian children are risk shy!  Families should help the children to take risks. Parents cannot do it because of us being ruled for 1000 years. We yet feel the yolk of being ruled. I always give the example of how in a circus one lion after the other obeys the ring master to jump across a ring turn by turn. Why do the lions not tear the ring master to pieces? Why do they simply obey him? Why do a 1000 donkeys run at the sight of a tiger. Actually all of them can surround him and pin him down. That is our plight. We are yet responding to the old software, the patterns, imprints remind us that we are still ruled. We ask our children to move from one job to the other and do not inspire them to be entrepreneurs!



Is it not difficult to inspire kids to be risk takers?

For that parents need to be even tempered! Brushing them away harms. What will happen? At the most He or She will fall flat on the face. But that is fine.  ‘I will work hard for it ‘. ‘Results are all upstairs’! We become very cynical and hyper critical of every issue and we very irresponsibly abuse everyone, Doctors, Lawyers, Judiciary and every one of being corrupt. Cynicism is also a consequence of being subjugated across 1000 years. Cynicism cannot improve society. We need to do constructive work. I don’t know why Indians are scared of controversies and being labeled controversial. In fact to be controvertible is important.



So what inspires you and what can inspire the youth?

I was thrown out of I.I.T Delhi as a Professor after I came back from Harvard as Indira Gandhi never liked me. I was thrown out without reason and without an inquiry and had no job. No one would give me a job then. Earlier Amartya Sen also disliked me and was told by him that I was not aligned to the ambience of the Universities. I was called a ‘Sanghi. As a kid I had played kabaddi  in a shakha. My views just matched with R.S.S .The Congress then were supported by the Communists and the ruling party handed over the Universities to the Communists. I was outspoken and boldly stated that the ‘Socialism’ is not the right thing for the country and ‘market economy’ can raise the Growth rate from 3.5% to 10 %. Indira Gandhi the then Prime a Minister was very angry and she told my uncle who was a Congressman that I was mad. My family told Indira Gandhi that I never listened to my father and how would I listen to any one. I wrote a book,’Swadeshi Plan’ and the Jan Sangh then supported it. I had no job. This opened many doors for me. Failure I believe opens to something bigger. If I had remained in I.I.T I would have retired with a pension and would have got my P.F and would have been sitting somewhere watching T.V. I believe more than Success, failure inspired me. So I tell the youth, failure will always inspire you not the success.


What do you think about the recent decisions of the Supreme Court that looked favoring one community such as banning fire crackers during Diwali ?

The Supreme Court also banned Triple Talaq.  They acted on the 2 G scam, on the issue of coalmines. The court acts on the arguments put forth by both sides. By far our Judiciary is very good and I have had a good experience. Why simple cases should be sent to the C.J.I of the Supreme Court. Why should we waste the time of the court for such simple issues.In fact all the retired Chief Justice’s across the country should be a part of an advisory council that can take up cases such as that of crackers during Diwali. Why should judges retire in their 60’s? What is 60 or 65? In fact in U.S.A Supreme Court they hear 200 petitions in a year and our SC hears that in a single day. There the prosecution and the defendant get 20 minutes each and then 10 minutes of rebuttal.  But here a lawyer can argue for days…..Our Judges really work very hard.



Your legal journey began very early!

I studied law. And I found that in the Civil Procedure ‘Discoveries by Interrogatory’ is very useful. One can get all documents. I had 4 defamation cases in the 80’s against me where a senior Lawyer was involved and the Mayor of Mumbai as well as the late Ramakrishna Hedge Chief Minister of Karnataka. No lawyers were ready to appear for me. My mother in law found a Parsee lawyer Mr Vakil to help me but that too did not work out. No one had the guts to oppose the famous lawyer. I was told to apologize by all but I stood my ground. So I argued myself. They all fell apart as I used the procedure of ‘Discovery by Interrogatory’. In fact the Mayor of Mumbai then was exposed because he lied that he was a Doctor under oath and he was not registered under the Maharashtra Medical Council. This was told to me by Murli Deora from the same party. I also found that Mr. Hegde also had unlawfully put phone numbers of 51 people under surveillance. That sabotaged his attempts to become the PM that he was aspiring for. He wanted to meet me before his death and I met him on his death bed. He shared that hr regretted the decision.The lawyer himself who had filed two cases against me had not declared his many bank accounts.  I also exposed Sonia Gandhi for falsely claiming that she studied English Literature at Cambridge. In the court when I exposed her she pleaded that  it was a printing mistake. I got the evidence in writing from Cambridge University.  Rahul Gandhi claimed he was M Phil from Cambridge but he never got one. He had failed in Economics. And in the National Herald case both the mother and son will get convicted for fraud. It is an open and shut case where Motilal Vora spoke to Motilal Vora and to Motilal Vora. This Gentleman was the Congress Treasurer and held posts also in other places.



You believe that a citizen of the country can fight their own cases!

Yes! Section 32 of Adv Act allows non advocates to argue. Sec 190 c.r.p.c ,a citizen can file a private complaint. Indian Constitution empowers citizens to seek effective legal interventions and we should use it. To be legally aware online and obtaining knowledge is important.Law is an instrument to keep the Government in check. Fear of Law is not good. Respect the law of the land. Love the laws of our country’. India is a much more democratic society than 1970. By and large our Judges are good.



What about the Ram Mandir issue?

120 % I will win the case. Our ex P.M Narasimha Rao has filed an affidavit that if remnants of a temple is found under the disputed structure than a temple can be built. When I had asked him then of why he did not fire at the karsevaks in Ayodhya during the demolition he told me that he was not a fool to do so. The two most renowned archaeologists in the country B.P.Lal & K.K Mohammed have clearly said that a temple existed.  I do not see any issue here. The Prime Minister can easily take action and build a temple on behalf of the Government. It is not difficult.


 Your Emergency days were very interesting:

Yes and a lot of it was in Vileparle where I am today. My G.P.S was Jagdish Baliga. I would go and stay in homes where he asked me to. I was told then not to remember the names as, if I am arrested the links would be exposed.  In fact somewhere in the middle there was to be a change of plan as Atal Behari Vajpayee had different ideas. But Jaggu said nothing doing. With clockwork precision he would get my newspapers in the morning and letters from the underground letter service of R.S.S.[When asked Jagdish told me that he was carrying out instructions of his seniors and he also shared that Subramanium Swamy was also a dynamite to handle with so much limitless energy. Jagdish adds that his living was so simple that there was no issue at all]. The underground movement must go on. That was the time my name went all over the country. Nanaji Deshmukh and Madhav Muley also inspired me then. One man who never wilted was Morarji Desai and he stood his ground opposing Emergency. It was during Emergency that though wanted I landed up in the parliament and raised a ‘point of order’. The house was at that time expressing condolences to those parliamentarians who passed away. And I said let us also condole the ‘Death of Democracy’. My hands were in my pocket and many parliamentarians went under the table out of fear. I walked out of the Parliament and immediately caught a train to Mumbai and immediately went to Ved Prakash Goels home. Those days many lawyers fought against the emergency. I feel that law is the AK 47 of democracy. I also feel that law can be used by the common man for the betterment of our country.

Indian fashion trends 500 years ago

King Anangapal Tomar - Founder of Delhi

Do you know him? Probably not. Because his story has been conveniently suppressed to make way for the "grand" sultanates of Delhi. Carefully omitting him from the pages of history to galvanize "grandeur" and "achievements" of religious marauders.

They wouln't tell you that the entire Qutb complex (the pinnacle of all Delhi sultanate things & India's most visited monument - even ahead of the Taj Mahal) sits on his legacy - a magnificent complex of twenty-seven Hindu and Jain temples. Within the boundaries of a grand fort called Lal Kot, later enlarged by none other than Prithviraj Chauhan & named Qila Rai Pithora. Remnant of which still sits there, very clearly visible & very cleverly ignored. But an architecturally impotent invader comes in. Breaks whatever he could. Places a stupid dome on top. Calls it Qutb Mosque or the Great Mosque of Delhi. And you go whoa! Let's take selfie here.

They also wouldn't tell you that his name is inscripted on the famous rust-free iron pillar (alongside its makers, the Guptas) that predates Islam (let alone the sultans in question) - "Samvat Dihali 1109 Ang Pāl bahi".

And thus King Anangapal Tomar, the original establisher of our capital, as we know today, has been ignored & dishonoured by us.

Quora : What is your view on the saying "Congress has looted India for 70 years?

I am reproducing an Excellent answer I saw on Quora for this question : 

It isn't the looting of wealth that bothers me so much as the sheer fact that the Congress merely replaced the Brits in some ways - they just became masters of the same, broken, weak people, who were simply willing to suck up to authority. Nobody gave India confidence! This is the part that bothers me so much, especially with MK Gandhi's style of 'winning' us freedom by giving the enemy higher moral ground.

So, India has grown up as an apologetic impotent nation, where our children are taught to revere impractical, passive, cowardly notions like non-violence, when everything in nature tells us to fight to survive. Of course I know the philosophy of not fighting because of being strong. But this comes from mastery, not shamelessly bowing to masters!
 

So, we saw a change of guard. The Brits went, and new masters came in the form of the Congress Party. Hierarchies remained, the class system remained, and subservience remained. Where the heck did all the dynamism go?

Then we were thrown into a socialist mindset, people waiting for alms from government wealth redistribution programs instead of being empowered. We got protectionist policies, that prevented prosperity and competition, throwing us away from a path of a meritocracy. Hindustan Motors was started around the same time as Toyota, and Tata Steel started around the same time as Nippon Steel. Nippon Steel produces around five times as much as Tata Steel without native resources of ore. No need to talk about Hindustan Motors and Toyota. Japan coming out of twin nuclear strikes was devastated way more than India under the Brits. Do we need to compare how different the growth paths of these two nations have been?

Only when thousands died did we start the Green Revolution. Only when China attacked us did we realize we need to become militarily stronger. Only with our backs against the wall, did India liberalize its economy. Under the Congress, every move we have made towards any kind of development has come under inevitable circumstances, with our backs against the wall.

India was never allowed to be truly independent, strong, and proud of its people's full potential. No wonder so many of us left in droves and thrived in various countries elsewhere. This is the loot I would feel most wronged by - denying India its best talents and minds, because we didn't create the conditions for dignified development.

Incredibly, the immense sacrifices of our fighting heroes were also swept aside under this avalanche of worship for Gandhiji. Why? So that the Brits would feel good? The Congress party was reporting to British Intelligence for 5 years after we became an independent country, about Subhash Bose's family's movements. During a criminal probe of the Bofors scandal, the Congress External Affairs minister delivered a letter to a foreign body to deny evidence and cooperation to an Indian investigating agency. Years later, a whole bunch of Congress members and their cronies used the letterhead of the Indian Parliament to petition the USA to not issue a visa to Narendra Modi, the man who would become Prime Minister. It is these bunch of ass lickers that I want to hang or burn over a slow fire.

The Congress has a clear obsession with white people and a need to constantly please them. When Hillary Clinton asked India to wean itself off Iranian oil, the Congress government promptly obliged, even though Iran and India have been close friends for a long time. No surprise then that pasta aunty from Italy is their supremo. Think she would have got the same respect if she had been a Nigerian black woman? I don't think so. That's how deeply ingrained the slave mentality is in the ranks of the Congress.

It is the loot of India's pride, dignity, dynamism and die hard spirit that bothers me much much more than the loot of wealth. This country produced enough wealth to support the British Empire for 200 years. It can easily produce much more to ensure prosperity, health and well being for its own people. This is an abundant, powerful country, that has been prevented from being a developed, forward thinking, awesome nation that could by now have been an example for the world.

If India has been a weak, apologetic nation for so long, it's precisely because of the Congress. Why do we have to put up with these weasels and the fools who are aligning with them? I could even tolerate a ruthless, despotic, dictatorial mindset. It is this slimy, backstabbing, self serving Lutyens mindset that really irks me. I would give anything to destroy this smugness, decimate it, and put it firmly behind us.

The economic loot is nothing compared to this, but we will bloody well make them pay for all of it.

RSS Shaakha

Following is the process through which RSS conducts its shaakha

Shaakha Steps
-------------
1. Shaakha Start
2. Ekatmata Stotra  (http://www.geetganga.org/ekaatmata-stotra)
3. Laghu/Ushna Vyayam
4. Surya Namaskaar
5. Vyayam
6. Khel
7. Boudhik
    7.a Geet
    7.b Subhashit
    7.c Amritvachan
    7.d Boudhik/Katha/Charcha
8 Shakaa End
 

Shaakha Layout

 Shakha-Prarambh

When Mukhyashikshak blows the whistle all the swayamsevaks will stand in “Aaram” behind “Sampat-sthan”, facing the Dhwajsthan.

 Procedure for Sampat
 
Mukhyashikshak will call upon agresars by giving “(1) Sangh Daksha” and “(2) Aaram” commands. Sampat line should be at least at the distance equal to height of dhwajstambh. When Mukhyashikshak gives “(3) Agresar” command, all the agresars should stand in Daksha position. Then they will match forward towards Sampat line and stand is Daksha position at designated places. These places for Agresars are to be earmarked by Mukhyashikshak as follows: go towards right of the Dhwaj for steps one less than number of Agresars.(ex: If there are 5 Agresars , then Mukhyashikshak will go 4 steps right of the Dhwaj),and that will be the position of first Agresar. Then on every two steps on left side (i.e. right side of First Agresar) will be other Agresars. Mukhyashikshak should ensure that distance between Agresars is proper. Mukhyashikshak will give “(4) Agresar Samyak “ command to check that all the Agresars are standing in a single straight row. Once this is verified Mukhyashikshak will issue “(5) Agresar Aaram” command.

After this Mukhyashikshak will issue “(6) Sangh Sampat” command. On issuance of this command all the swayamsevaks (including Agresars) will stand in the Daksha position. Then all swayamsevaks should march forward and stand behind Agresar at a distance of arm’s length. Mukhyashikshak should stand midway between Dhwaj and Agresar standing line towards right of Dhwaj, at a distance of 3 steps from left most Agresar. Adhikari will stand midway between Dhwaj and Agresar standing line, towards left of Dhwaj, at a distance of 3 steps from right most Agresar. This way Mukhyashikshak and Adhikari will be facing each other.

 Procedure for Samyak

Mukhyashikshak will issue “(7) Sangh Daksha” command. On this command swayamsevaks will stand in Daksha position. Then Mukhyashikshak will issue “(8) Sangh Samyak”. On issuance of this command, Agresars will turn by 180 degrees by right side. In this position Agresar will be facing the swayamsevaks. When in this position Agresar has to check that all the swayamsevaks are in one line. If not, proper verbal instruction should be given (No hand gestures). On issuance of “(9) Agresar Ardhvrut” command, Agresars will turn by 180 degrees by right side. In this position Agresars will face the Dhwaj. Mukhyashikshak issues “(10) Sangh Aaram” command to prepare the swayamsevaks for Dhwajaropan.

Swayamsevak, who is responsible for Dhwajaropan, should stand at the right hand side of the Mukhyashikshak during Sampat holding the flag in his hand. On “(11) Sangh Daksha” command, all the swayamsevaks will stand in Daksha position. Then swayamsevak, who is responsible for Dhwajaropan, will march towards Dhwajmandal by shortest path. He will stand in front of Dhwajsthan at proper distance. Then he will hold the Dhwajstambh under his left armpit at an approx. angle of 45 degrees. Then using both his hands he will put the Dhwaj on the Dhwajstambh. When this is done, Dhwajstambh will be placed in the holder. After this, swayamsevak should come out of the Dhwajmandal-step back one step and do the Dhwaj-pranam. After Dhwaj-pranam, he will march by shortest path towards at two steps right of the right most agresar and will stand in line with other agresars after taking a turn of 180 degrees.

After this Mukhyashikshak issues “(12) Dhwaj-Pranam 1-2-3” command. After Dhwaj-pranam, “(13) Sankhya” command will be issued. Then the swayamsevaks standing at the end of each column will step aside by one step towards his right side. Then he will march forward counting number of swayamsevaks in his column. He will stop near the Agresar and will tell the number of swayamsevaks to agresar. He should tell the number loud enough to be heard by Agresar and without looking at Agresar.

When Mukhyashikshak issues “(14) Aaram” command, the above swayamsevaks will turn by 180 degrees and march towards their respective place. When they are near their place these swayamsevaks will turn by 180 degrees. Then they will step aside (left side) by one step to be in line with other swayamsevaks. When above command is issued , the right most agresar will step ahead by one step and will turn by 90 degrees to his left. Then he will march forward collecting the number count from each Agresars. Then he will step ahead by one step from left most agresar. Then he will inform Mukhyashikshak, the total number of swayamsevaks (by adding all Agresar’s numbers and himself). After informing the Mukhyashikshak, he will step aside one step towards his left, march forward two steps and do a 180 turn to be beside Mukhyashikshak.

After issuing “(15) Sangh Daksha” and “(16) Aaram”, Mukhyashikshak will tell the number of swayamsevaks present (includes Number given by Swayamsevak + Himself + Adhikari) to the Adhikari present and will return to his place.

If Adhikari present is to be honored by “Daksha”, then Mukhyashikshak will tell the number of swayamsevaks after command 15. Then stepping back one step and will turn to face swayamsevaks. Then after giving “(16) Aaram”, he will return to his place.

Once Mukhyashikshak reaches his place, he will issue “(17) Daksha” command and “(18) Swasthan”. Then all the swayamsevaks will go to places as led by “GanShikshaks”.

 Shakha Visarjan

To call upon swayamsevaks for Prarthana, Mukhyashikshak will blow the whistle. Then all the Agresars will march towards respective place and stand in Daksha position. Mukhyashikshak will give “(1) Agresar Samyak” and check whether all the agresars are in-line. After checking the Samyak of Agresars, Mukhyashikshak will give “(2) Agresar Aaram” command. When Mukhyashikshak blows the whistle for second time, all the Agresars will stand in Daksha Position and all the swayamsevaks will come forward and stand behind Agresars at proper distance. After this Mukhyashikshak will issue “(3) Sangh Daksha”,”(4) Sangh Samyak”,”(5) Agresar Ardhvrut”,“(6) Sankhya” and “(7) Aaram“ commands. After this swayamsevak, standing as the right most agresar will collect Sankhya from other Agresars and will inform the Mukhyashikshak after adding those. Mukhyashikshak will inform the Adhikari about Sankhya. Then Mukhyashikshak will come to his designated place and will issue “(8) Sangh Daksha”. To prepare swayamsevaks for Prarthana Mukhyashikshak will issue “ (9) Aaram and (10) Sangh Daksha” commands. When Mukhyashikshak blows the whistle or issues “(11) Prarthana” command, swayamsevak, designated for the Prarthana, will recite the Prarthana and other swayamsevaks will follow him. After completion of Prarthana, Mukhyashikshak will give “(12) Dhwaj Pranam 1-2-3” command. After Dhwaj Pranam, swayamsevak (designated for the Prarthana) will march forward towards the Dhwajstambh. He will stand outside the Dhwajmandal and after will offer the Dhwaj pranam and then enter the Dhwajmandal. Then he will lift the Dhwajstambh from holder and hold it slanted under his left arm. Then will remove the flag by right hand and hold it in the left arm. After this he will stand beside the Mukhyashikshak. When this is done Mukhyashikshak will issue “(13) Sangh Vikir” command. Then all the swayamsevaks will turn towards their right side by 90 degrees, do a pranam and leave their places. Adhikari, Mukhyashikshak and Prarthana Swayamsevaks will do the pranam in their respective positions.

India's Unity & the Fight against British

Through geographically, ethnologically and historically India presents an endless diversity to any observer - there is none the less a fundamental unity underlying this diversity. But as Mr Vincent A. Smith has said : " European writers as a rule have been more conscious of the diversity than of the unity of India... India beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, color, language, dress, manners and sect. (Oxford History of India- Vincent A.Smith).

Geographically, India seems to be cut out from the rest of the world as a self-contained unit. Bounded on the north by the mighty Himalayas and surrounded on both sides by the endless ocean, India affords the best example of a geographical unit. The ethnic diversity of India has never been a problem - for throughout her history she has been able to absorb different races and impose on them one common culture and tradition. The most important cementing factor has been the Hindu religion. North or South, East or West, wherever you may travel, you will find the same religious ideas, the same culture and the same tradition. All Hindus look upon India as the Holy Land.The sacred rivers like the sacred cities are distributed all over the country. (The Fundamental Unity of India, Prof. Radha Kumud Mookherji). If as a pious Hindu you have to complete your round of pilgrimage, you will have to travel to Setubandha - Rameshwaram in the extreme south and to Badrinath in the bosom of the snow capped Himalayas in the north.The great teachers who wanted to convert the country to their faith had always to tour the whole of India and one of the greatest of them, Shankaracharya, who flourished in the eighth century A.D, built four "Ashramas" (monasteries) in four corners of India, which flourish to this day. Everywhere the same scriptures are read and followed and the epics, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, are equally popular wherever you may travel.

With the advent of the Mohammedans, a new synthesis was gradually worked out. Though they did not accept the religion of the Hindu's, they made India their home and shared in the common social life of the people - their joys and sorrows. Through mutual co-operation, a new art and a new culture was evolved which was different from the old but which nevertheless was distinctly Indian. In architecture, painting, music - new creations were made which represented the happy blending of the two streams of culture. Moreover, the administration of the Mohammedan rulers left untouched the daily life of the people and did not interfere with local self govt based on the old system of village communities. With British rule, however, there came a new religion, a new culture and a new civilization which did not want to blend with the old but desired to dominate the country completely.The british people, unlike the invaders of old, did not make India their home. They regarded themselves as birds of passage and looked upon India as the source of raw materials and as the market for finished goods. Moreover, they endeavored to imitate the autocracy of the Mohammedan rulers without following thier wise policy of complete non-interference in local affairs. The result fo this was that the Indian people began to feel for the first time in their history that they were being dominated culturally, politically and economically by a people who were quite alien to them and with whom they had nothing whatsoever in common. Hence the magnitude of  the revolt against the British domination of India.

Source : The Indian Struggle 1920-1942, by Subhas Chandra Bose

Slavish Mentality

Some people think that, it was because of british, India saw Industrialization  and that made India what it is today & hence needs to be appreciated & because of this british rule was good. But those people forget to see that, If the British left any lasting legacies, it was not because they were philanthropists, but because they used those very same institutions themselves, to rob us blind..As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6% in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3% at that time, to as low as 3.8% in 1952.Yet an economist like Manmohan Singh, thanked (read:http://www.hindu.com/nic/0046/pmspeech.htm) the British for good Governance, when they impoverished India and robbed all it's riches? It's a very slavish mentality (fostered by the British) that makes us think that they were responsible for any good that is presently in India. 

There have been in the course of India's history periods of progress and prosperity followed by intervals of decay and even chaos and the former have been always characterised by a very high level of culture and civilization.India contributed to mathematics, astronomy, medicine, metallurgy etc, much before there were any invaders (Muslims, French, Dutch, British). Only through ignorance or through prejudice could one assert that under British rule India began to experience for the first time what political unity was.

Couldn't change (Industrialization etc) have happened organically without all the brutality and enslavement of colonization?

We need to get rid of that slavish mentality and to stop being like well-trained dogs! Every country goes through periods of turmoil for long periods after becoming independent. Read the violent history of the United States.
With all its problems and extreme poverty, India is a shining beacon of democracy and has been a stellar example of tolerance and openness for thousands of years. 

Why do I still serve you?

-- By an Unknown Soldier

How you play with us, did you ever see?
At Seven, I had decided what I wanted to be;
I would serve you to the end,
All these boundaries I would defend.

Now you make me look like a fool,
When at seventeen and just out of school;
Went to the place where they made "men out of boys"
Lived a tough life …sacrificed a few joys…

In those days, I would see my "civilian" friends,
Living a life with the fashion trends;
Enjoying their so called "college days"
While I sweated and bled in the sun and haze…
But I never thought twice about what where or why
All I knew was when the time came, I'd be ready to do or die.

At 21 and with my commission in hand,
Under the glory of the parade and the band,
I took the oath to protect you over land, air or sea,
And make the supreme sacrifice when the need came to be.

I stood there with a sense of recognition,
But on that day I never had the premonition,
that when the time came to give me my due,
You'd just say, "What is so great that you do?"

Long back you promised a well-to-do life;
And when I'm away, take care of my wife.
You came and saw the hardships I live through,
And I saw you make a note or two,
And I hoped you would realise the worth of me;
but now I know you'll never be able to see,
Because you only see the glorified life of mine,
Did you see the place where death looms all the time?
Did you meet the man standing guard in the snow?
The name of his newborn he does not know...
Did you meet the man whose father breathed his last?
While the sailor patrolled our seas so vast?

You still know I'll not be the one to raise my voice
I will stand tall and protect you in Punjab Himachal and Thois.

But that's just me you have in the sun and rain,
For now at twenty-four, you make me think again;
About the decision I made, seven years back;
Should I have chosen another life, some other track?

Will I tell my son to follow my lead?
Will I tell my son, you'll get all that you need?
This is the country you will serve
This country will give you all that you deserve?

I heard you tell the world "India is shining"
I told my men, that's a reason for us to be smiling
This is the India you and I will defend!
But tell me how long will you be able to pretend?
You go on promise all that you may,
But it's the souls of your own men you betray.

Did you read how some of our eminent citizens
Write about me and ridicule my very existence?
I ask you to please come and see what I do,
Come and have a look at what I go through
Live my life just for a day
Maybe you'll have something else to say?

I will still risk my life without a sigh
To keep your flag flying high
but today I ask myself a question or two…
Oh India…. Why do I still serve you?

Ancient Indian Algebra

During his speech on June 4 in Cairo, Egypt, President Barack Obama gave credit to Muslims for invention of many things, including algebra. I would like to bring out the facts about the history of algebra.

The credit for the first use of algebra probably goes to the Babylonians, who solved some quadratic problems verbally, but recognized only positive roots. During the time of Plato, Greeks used geometry to solve algebraic problems. Later, Diophantus (about 350 A.D.) wrote some rules for multiplication and division and solved some simple problems in “Arithmetica.” His algebra was syncopated and rhetorical.

Indians have a long history of using mathematics.Fire altars were constructed using Pythagoras’ theorem long before Pythagoras. A decimal system for weights and measures was used in the Indus Valley (2500 B.C.). Numbers in multiples of 2, 7, 10, 100 and even one million are found in several books, including “Narad Vishnu Purana” (1000 B.C.), “Anuyog Dwara Sutra” (100 B.C.), “Lalitvistara” (100 A.D.) and several Mahayana Buddhist books. “Anuyog Dwara Sutra” also gives multiplication of square roots of square roots. Basic use of logarithm appears in “Satkhandagama” (150 A.D.).

The Bakhshali manuscript (200 A.D.) found near Peshawar in Pakistan includes fractions, square roots, quadratic equations, simultaneous equations, arithmetic and geometric progressions etc.Aryabhatta (499 A.D.), a great Indian astronomer, wrote 118 verses in “Aryabhattiya” which cover several areas including arithmetic, algebra, plane and spherical trigonometry. It includes continued fractions, square roots, cube roots, quadratic equations, sum of power series and a table of sines.He introduced the Kuttaka method (breaking down of original factors into smaller numbers). He gave the circumference of Earth as 4,967 yojanas (24,835 miles) and stated that Earth moves around the sun long before Copernicus.

Brahmgupta (628 A.D.), another eminent Indian astronomer, wrote “Brahm-saphuta-siddhanta,”containing 25 chapters in which he gave several rules for arithmetical operations involving zero. He solved several quadratic equations and gave both positive and negative roots. In his book, he also solves several indeterminate problems.

In addition, he worked on trigonometry and gave the area of cyclic quadrilaterals and the interpolation formula for computation of sines. In astronomy, he dealt with lunar eclipses, etc. He introduced some symbols in algebra, but it was mostly syncopated.

Other Indians who made significant contributions to arithmetic/algebra include Varahamihir (505 A.D.), Bhaskara I (680 A.D.), Mahavira (800 A.D.), Madhva (850 A.D.) and Bhaskara II (1114 A.D.). Mahavira wrote solutions to several arithmetic operations, including fractions, permutations and combinations, and areas of ellipses. The works of Bhaskara II, include beej ganita (algebraic root extraction), astronomy, the solution to Pell’s equation, solutions to indeterminate problems by the Chakrawaat method and Diophantine problems. He broached the fields of infinitesimal calculation and integration. He postulated the existence of gurutava (gravitational attraction).

Destruction of several universities by Muslim invaders around 724 A.D., 786 A.D. and 1200 A.D. brought an end to India’s dominance in the field of mathematics.

During the 8th century A.D., several Sanskrit works were translated into Arabic in Baghdad. (Baghdad means “gift of God” in Sanskrit.) During the 9th century A.D., Caliph al-Mamun established a “House of Wisdom” in Baghdad and invited scholars from many countries, including India, Persia, and Greece, etc., to translate mathematical and other works into Arabic. Persian scholar al-Khwarizmi wrote about half a dozen books on astronomy and mathematics.His most famous work, “Hisab al-jabr wa’l muqabalah,” was written around 830 A.D. It consists of six chapters, each dealing with a different formula. Muslims give him credit for the invention of algebra. As per O’Connor and Robertson, researchers at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, al-Khwarizmi visited India and took with him several mathematical works to Baghdad. His book on algebra was based mostly on the works by Brahmgupta (628 A.D.). Most of his algebra can be described as rhetorical.

Muslim scholars never developed symbols, which were necessary for advancement. They also rejected negative roots of quadratic equations, although they had learned from Hindus, as per O’Connor and Robertson. However, they improved upon the Hindu number system and the positional notations. Other notable Muslim scholars include al-Karkhi (953 A.D.), Omar Khayyam (1050 A.D.), al-Tushi (1135 A.D.) and Jamshid al-Kashi (1380 A.D.). The work of al-Khwarizmi and other Muslim scholars reached Europe around 1200 A.D. and they mistakenly gave credit for the invention of zero and other numerals — and algebra — to Muslims.

On the whole, Muslims’ contribution to the advancement in algebra is very small.
The real credit should go to Indians. As far as Obama is concerned, he should present only the facts.

Shree Vir Gupta is a nuclear/chemical engineer with a deep interest in Hinduism and Buddhism.

Vande Mataram

हम कौन थे,, क्या हो गये...!

वह कौन है..

Do we have any right to feel proud of our culture?

By: Suresh Khare

The word nationalism evokes different emotions in different people. Some proudly proclaim them to be nationalists, some curse the very idea blaming it for the mayhem of first and Second World War while a large majority is completely indifferent to the idea.

There is a sudden surge of nationalist feeling during a cricket match or when we face an external threat as was seen during Kargil war and much recently during 26/11 attack. But as soon as the match is over or the threat is neutralized this feeling also retreats.

But is nationalism a switch that can be switched off and on at will? Can this surge of nationalist feeling be called nationalism? What is nationalism?

According to me nationalism is a desire to be useful for the country. It is the willingness to sacrifice everything for the sake of your nation. It is selfless state where your nation becomes more important than your religion, your caste, your region, your family and even your life. It was due to this selfless nationalist feeling that we were able to attain our independence. It was a staunch nationalist movement under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi that won the freedom for our country.

Historically, we were a divided lot fighting with each other in the name of region, caste, religion, etc. It was due to this weakness foreigners came and have plundered our country. It was under the majestic leadership of Mahatma that all these difference were forgotten and everyone stood united in the fight against the foreign imperialists.

But after the independence, instead of strengthening this, the political class started dividing the society. Feeling of nationalism was suppressed and casteism, regionalism, communism were encouraged. Most of the political leaders have mastered the art of divide and rule and used it to divide our society to strengthen their hold on power. “Let the people fight for the bigger share of the pie. For if they fight they will not ask why the pie is so small” seems to be the motto of our leaders.

Post independence, political parties have played on the fears of people; they have worked tirelessly to project one community against another. The reason why they have been successful in doing this is because there is a miss match between requirements and available opportunities. In an environment of limited opportunities people are fiercely competing with one another. In this competition some people are at great disadvantage due to their social and economical conditions. This has led to their just demand for reservation but this demand has severely damaged the unity of our society.

Reservation as a policy has failed miserably; the groups that were backward before independence (socially and economically) are still backward. Some individuals have benefitted from reservation but community as whole has not benefitted from it. India would be the only country in the world where people agitate to be called backward. There is a recurring demand by different castes to get included in SC or OBC list. These demands are resisted by castes that are already there in the list. This leads to caste conflict like the one we saw between Gujjars and Meenas in Rajasthan. There are demands made by people that locals should be given preference in the jobs, this demand has led to violence and loss of life as in Maharashtra were Marathis and north Indians are fighting for very few available jobs which are not even enough for any one community.

Any organisation that is looking to unite India has to find solution for the lack of opportunities. We have to create India where everyone has equal and abundant opportunities to excel. But it is a job that is easier said than done. May be we all know this but how do we do it. There is no magic wand or one step that can solve this problem. It will require a series of honest efforts by everyone, the government, social organisations and people.

One of the main reasons for the India’s backwardness is her neglect of education, specially the primary and secondary education. Few days back, I was reading an article on Economic times by Mr Yasheng Huang. In this article he had argued that the reason for the impressive growth of China is the major investment it made in primary education during 50s, 60s and 70s.

In India our population has become a cause of concern. Millions of people are getting added to the work force every year but job creation is not able to keep up the pace. So we see a large number of unemployed people or under employed people. This huge population has become a major liability for our country. The quality of human resource in India is one of the worst in the whole world. We have blindly followed Maculay’s education system which was meant to make babus for British Empire. This system is doing exactly what it was meant to do i.e. create Babus.

Maculay had a disdain for anything Indian and this scorn was reflected in the system he created for India. There is hardly any emphasis on our rich culture and traditions in our test books. Vedas, Puranas, Gita have one line existence in our books. Vedic maths, which was rediscovered in early 20th century from Vedas, is an unheard concept in our classrooms. The Hindu philosophy of Karma finds no mention in our test books. Our Ayurveda and Yoga have largely been ignored by our education system.

It is not only what is being taught but also the manner in which it is taught that has changed. In Gurukul exploratory learning process was followed, where teachers and students were co-travellers in a search for truth. The teaching methods used reasoning and questioning. Nothing was final. In Gurukul system students were made self sufficient and effort was made to develop reasoning. Classes were held close to the nature which helped in building creativity in students. This method of teaching is any day better than current way of teaching as it ensures students involvement and interest while the current education system is based on rote learning which kills creativity.

A teacher is supposed to give a monologue which students are expected to mug up and reprint on the examination paper. In many schools students, especially in rural areas, are discouraged to ask any questions. The product of this education system is under confident, uncreative person who is afraid to take any initiative and need instructions to do any work, I am also a Product of this system.

India has rich culture and traditions. Each and every village has a story and a history to tell. Every place has rich traditions and a developed culture that is based on thousands of years of enlightenment. Are we not forgetting these stories, these histories, these traditions and our culture? Rajasthan has been able to retain and preserve some of its heritage because of its emphasis on tourism but can the same be said of other parts of our country? If you go to the village adjacent to a depleted fort and ask the people about its history more often than not you will be stared back by blank faces. Is it not the failure of our education system that we are forgetting the rich heritage of our country, heritage that is the result of thousands of years of experience?

In our race to become developed we have forgotten the real meaning of progress. We have defined development according to some scales and are blindly rushing to perfect the score on those scales. We are trying to achieve 100% literacy, so what if the quality of education is not up to mark. We have set-up a goal to industrialise our country and have created SEZ for their growth, so what if they have created regional disparity. We have set-up the goal to increase the productivity of our farm, so what if the food produced in those farms are making people sick. We have set-up a goal to urbanise our country, so what if it has created the problem of slums. We have set-up a goal to increase our tourism, so what if that has destroyed our heritage and natural beauty. The list goes on and on.

The problem is not with the goal but the way by which we have tried to achieve it, if it is not so then how will you explain the rise in unemployment with increase in literacy or increase in disparity with increased growth?

In this race to grow we have forgotten our roots, our culture and our traditions. Many times we have heard about danger to our national boundaries from foreign and internal forces what we generally forget is the danger to our culture from westernisation. Never before has our culture faced such a challenge. Our culture withstood the onslaught of Islam and Indianised it. It remained unaffected by around 200 hundred years of slavery. But now it is facing its greatest crisis for this crisis is from within.

It is we the people of India who have forgotten our roots. This has led to degradation of values, corruption and indifference. What is the reason why the people who were once described as “having high moral values” have degraded to such a level? Why the Society that coined the phrase “Athithi Devo Bhawa” (Guest is God) needs an advertisement to understand its meaning? What is the difference between the past and the present society of our country? The difference is that today “Athithi Devo Bhawa” is good business while yesterday it was way of life. Today wealth and material has become the most important thing while yesterday it was Character and Contentment. People today are individualistic, ambitious, insecure and unhappy while yesterday they were collective, self content, secure and happy.

One of the reasons for this transformation is that priorities have changed for the people. They are ready to cheat, hurt and malign for self advancement. But these are against the basic structure of our conscience and this leads to insecurity, fear and unhappiness. But why have we become so weak and morally void?

One of the reasons I think is breaking up of joint families. Previously, the role of building a character was unwittingly taken up by the nanis and dadis. They used to frame the basic fabric of human being through the countless stories of Ram, Krishna, etc. the stories that had lessons of Gita and Vedas. This early education that used to define an individual has almost disappeared from our society and has been replaced by cartoons and comics. Not just the morals but also the history and more than 5000yrs old culture of our country are fast disappearing. When I was 8yrs old I went to my mother’s village (Damoh - Near Jabalpur, but no more a Village anymore) to attend my Mausi’s marriage. I distinctly remember the countless songs called Mangal Geet that the ladies of the village sang. Few months back I went to Sagar (Madhya Pradesh) to attend marriage of my Cousin but this time those mangal geets were replaced by DJ that was playing latest hindi and "POP" songs.

The folk songs are our heritage. They contain history of every corner of our country. They contain our beliefs and our knowledge acquired through thousands of years of experience. We are forgetting this knowledge and it will be lost forever because this knowledge has passed on from one generation to other through recitation and if one generation chooses not to learn it, it will be forgotten forever. I have listened to many speakers who have mentioned about our more than 5000 years old culture to enthuse their audience. We Indians have taken pride in our culture by talking about it. But do we have any right to feel proud of our culture? Is it really our culture? We have forgotten it and are letting it disappear; we are just like any foreigner who knows little about our culture.

All of us are in a state of inertia. We all know that something wrong is happening, we all want to change it but we are too lazy to stand up and change it. We have wasted the last 60years of our independence. We need a movement to ensure coming years are not the same. We need another Gandhi to walk up and down the country to push us out of this state of inertia. Someone who believes in our culture like Mahatma did. Someone, who can stop us from becoming the shadow of the West.

JAAGO..

Vande Mataram..

Utthishta Bharata

I remember watching one or two episodes of Chanakya TV Serial in DD National TV and suddenly it stopped airing after some episodes. I didn't know why at that time, I was a kid. I don't remember whether I understood the serial or not or whether I was interested in that or not.But I think I believe I was interested because I still remember those episodes.

And after stopping that serial, they started airing,Akbar the great serial(or it was Tippu Sultan serial don't remember exactly).

And the time passed on... as always time passes on and we never realize what we left behind.

Recently I got Chanakya TV Serial video CD's from one of my friend, and I spent watching the episodes almost 18 hours continuously without stop. I was spell bound to watch such a serial, and later came to know why DD National stopped airing it.And it was congress govt which stopped the serial, thinking that it expresses Hindu Oriented Nationalistic views & those of RSS & BJP ideology.

I really liked Chanakya serial. It is very much essential for the future generations. I request all of you to have one copy of all the episodes with you and see yourself as well as show it to your family members & kids. Protect our culture.

And I heard "Utthishta Bharata" word in that serial, in Sanskrit it means, "Arise India". It empowers each one of us, bharatiya's, to put our efforts into protecting our Motherland as well as our culture.

Utthishta Bharata, Jai Hind.

Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai

Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Dekhna hai zor kitna baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
Aye watan, Karta nahin kyun doosree kuch baat-cheet
Dekhta hun main jise woh chup teri mehfil mein hai
Aye shaheed-e-mulk-o-millat main tere oopar nisaar
Ab teri himmat ka charcha ghair ki mehfil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Waqt aanay dey bata denge tujhe aye aasman
Hum abhi se kya batayen kya hamare dil mein hai
Khainch kar layee hai sab ko qatl hone ki ummeed
Aashiqon ka aaj jumghat koocha-e-qaatil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Hai liye hathiyaar dushman taak mein baitha udhar
Aur hum taiyyaar hain seena liye apna idhar
Khoon se khelenge holi gar vatan muskhil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Haath jin mein ho junoon katt te nahi talvaar se
Sar jo uth jaate hain voh jhukte nahi lalkaar se
Aur bhadkega jo shola-sa humaare dil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Hum to ghar se nikle hi the baandhkar sar pe kafan
Jaan hatheli par liye lo barh chale hain ye qadam
Zindagi to apni mehmaan maut ki mehfil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Yuun khadaa maqtal mein qaatil kah rahaa hai baar baar'
Kya tamannaa-e-shahaadat bhi kisee ke dil mein hai
Dil mein tuufaanon ki toli aur nason mein inqilaab
Hosh dushman ke udaa denge humein roko na aaj
Duur reh paaye jo humse dam kahaan manzil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai
Wo jism bhi kya jism hai jismein na ho khoon-e-junoon
Toofaanon se kya lade jo kashti-e-saahil mein hai
Chup khade hain aaj saare bhai mere khaamosh hain
Na karo to kuchh kaho mazhab mera mushkil mein hai
Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ab hamaare dil mein hai.
Dekhna hai zor kitna baazuay qaatil mein hai.

Athma Shatakam - By Adi Shankaracharya

1) Mano Buddhi Ahankara Chitta Ninaham
Nacha Shrotra Jihve Na Cha Ghrana Netre
Nacha Vyoma Bhoomir Na Tejo Na Vayu
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham
2) Na Cha Prana Sangyo Na Vai Pancha Vayu
Na Vaa Sapta dhatur Na Vaa Pancha Koshah
Na Vak Pani Padam Na Chopastha Payu
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham
3)Na Me Dvesha Ragau Na Me Lobha Mohau
Mado Naiva Me Naiva Maatsarya Bhavah
Na Dharmo Na Chartho Na Kamo Na Mokshah
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham
4)Na Punyam Na Papam Na Saukhyam Na Dukham
Na Mantro Na Teertham Na Veda Na Yajnaha
Aham Bhojanam Naiva Bhojyam Na Bhokta
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham
5) Na Mrityu Na Shanka Na Me Jati Bhedah
Pita Naiva Me Naiva Mata Na Janma
Na Bandhur Na Mitram Gurur Naiva Shishyah
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham
6) Aham NirvikaLpo Nirakara Roopo
Vibhut Vaakhya Sarvatra Sarvendriyanam
Sada Me Samatvam Na Mukthir Na Bandhah
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham

Quote of the day

People who have NO loyalty towards their own country will have No loyalty towards anyone and are meant to be used and disposed off.

Why We Support the BJP - Because India Deserves Better

Source : Friends Of BJP

We are some of us - young and professionals. Till some time ago, we assumed that our contribution to the 2009 elections and the future of India would be our one vote. But, somewhere along the line, things changed. Maybe it was 26/11 and seeing some of us out on the streets demanding action. Maybe it was seeing Obama become President, and see politics really change in America, bottom-up. Whatever it was, we have woken up to the fact that we have to do more - much more - if we are going to rewrite our future and rebuild our India into the glorious country that it once was.

We know we are on the wrong track when security warnings sent on September 24 for the event that happened on 26/11 are ignored and not acted on. We know we are on the wrong track when we cannot provide adequate electricity 24×7 in our homes and factories - and yet for the sake of votes our political parties offer free power to millions. We know we are on the wrong track when we have schemes like NREGS and bank loan write-offs which create wealth for the entire value chain - except for the one it is supposed to help. We know we are on the wrong track when we can barely add to the highways in five years. We know we are on the wrong track when a mother says that her biggest challenge of parenting is finding a good school for her daughter.

We are on the wrong track. And it is WE who put us there. By our apathy, by not voting, by accepting mediocrity, by not being part of the political process. The best we do is show up at candle-light vigils when we are shocked from our smugness, but don’t we need something more concrete and impactful?

We are India’s educated civil society. If we cannot act individually and as a team, then we forfeit the right to complain. Democracy comes with responsibilities and duties. It also comes with a generation having to make some sacrifices so the Tomorrow for our children can be better than our Today.

We have less than 90 days only to the elections. India has 2 national parties and a multitude of regional parties. We have to make a choice about the party at the Centre. We can wait for a utopian world and the creation of the Perfect Political Party. Or, we can pick the party with the lighter shades of grey.

A week ago, when some of us got together to talk about the elections and the future, we also made our choice. We decided to support the BJP - and work towards ensuring LK Advani becomes Prime Minister. The BJP may not be the Whitest of the parties, but in our view, it is by far, the better, cleaner, more democratic, less feudal and more promising of the two national options. More importantly, we also realised that in the 2009 Elections, the way things stand, unless the BJP gets 50-75 more seats on its own above the 130 it got in the 2004 elections, there is little hope of the BJP forming a government at the centre.

Thus was formed Friends of BJP. We are neither all signed-up members nor agree with everything and everybody in the party has always said. But we firmly believe that, in 2009, the BJP and LK Advani are the best hopes for India. We have a clear short-term goal, and a grander long-term vision for Friends of BJP.

The 90-day goal is to get BJP to 200+ seats - in the 15th Lok Sabha. This will mean a massive outreach programme through all means at our disposal to get the silent supporters to be more vocal, and the undecideds to be swung the BJP way. Bringing about a BJP government at the centre with Advani at the helm will then bring into focus the longer-term vision. That is about a government that is two-way, that listens to us, that we can feel a part of. Technologies like the Internet and mobile give us the tools to self-organise and make our voices heard. The India of 2009 is very different from that of 2004. The 2009 Elections will be the first where urban India can actually make a difference.

We have to become the Voice of India. For 60 years, we have been Led. And for many of those years, Led down a wrong path. The time has now come for us to Lead.

We Support the BJP. Because India Deserves Better.

Full Text of Interview of Sushma Swraj on PTV

Interview of Shrimati Sushma Swaraj, Minister of Information & Broadcasting (I&B) by Mr. Syed Talat Hussein of Pakistan Television (PTV)  Islamabad - March 8, 2002 Transcript: (Translated from Urdu/Hindi)

PTV: Thank you, Mrs. Sushma Swarajji it is a matter of great pleasure that you have been kind enough to spare your precious time for the programme to answer a few questions that arise in the minds of the people of India and Pakistan. The crucial point is that these questions seem to defy satisfactory answers. It is your second visit to Pakistan, isn't it? Minister (I&B): Yes, it is. PTV: What sort of sessions did you have? Had there been some opportunities to exchange views? Minister (I&B): No. PTV: Not yet? Minister (I&B): Yes, this is my second visit. But it is strikingly different from the last one. During my visit two and a half years I was just a citizen of India that is why we had open discussions. But now I am here as a minister and am restricted to certain formalities such as meeting the ministers of SAARC countries; and am confined to places like hotels, rooms, conferences and so on. I have no opportunity to meet the masses. PTV: In the light of your discussion what do you think are the feelings of the people of Pakistan for the people of India. Was the discussion free from the sense of terror? Minister (I&B):It was all free from the sense of terror because the discussion was confined to the political people. Such discussions are restricted and measured, that too when one is on a visit meant for a particular purpose. As an illustration, SAARC is a multi lateral forum which does not include bilateral issues. Under such well defined and restricted conditions one’s discussion beyond the stated bounds will have to be more awfully confined and limited. PTV: President Gen. Pervez Musharraf talked about lifting the bans on the flights of India and Pakistan and restrictions on issuing the visas. What was the reaction of your Government?  Minister (I&B): Being a minister I am not authorised to comment. For your information, I would like to say one thing that it was practically not feasible for our Govt. to respond so quickly. But it is really surprising as to how the President raised this issue here where no bilateral issue is discussed. The basic reason is that Gen. Pervez Musharraf is the President of Pakistan. He is independent and free to take any decision and announce it anywhere. But India is a democratic country. Even the P.M. is not independent and free to make such declarations and announcements from any forum or dias. Before a response to any thing, In our country the matter has to be reviewed and has to undergo a process before the response is made. We have a cabinet and Parliament and everything has to be decided through an approved process, similar is the case with the imposition of a ban as well as lifting it. PTV: One of the officials of P.T.I. quoting your foreign official said that he was not ready to respond at that time. You reject it. Does it imply that it was not a correct reaction? Minister (I&B): No. Not at all. I had already said that I was not authorised to make any response. Similarly, no foreign official is entitled to make any response, neither negative nor positive. PTV: The external ministry does not have the authority to respond; so, small wonder how the newspapers published it. Was the news true or false? The fact is that the newspapers become the part of problems. Minister (I&B): Which news do you refer to? I am not aware of it, So I can't discuss it. PTV: We can discuss different issues and measures by leaving other affairs like: whether this matter can be quickly responded or not and other processes related to the cabinet and Parliament. We should discuss the points which will help foster faith and mend the embittered relations. Minister (I&B): I have already told you that I am on a visit with special aims and objectives. Bilateral issues are not discussed here. I might have to attend the SAARC meeting if it had been in Columbo, Dakka, Maldives or any where for that matter, with the same objectives, as per the defined norms. I do not want to undermine the importance of SAARC. It is a Forum constituted for the regional Co-operation. This is the reason that the Indian Govt. decided to send me to attend the meeting in Islamabad without any reservation and preconceived notion. If the Indian Govt. had not sent its representative it would have been a lapse on its part. It is just a chance that the meeting is held in Islamabad. And this is still a chance that I am the Minister for Information and Broadcasting and this conference is meant basically for the Ministers for Information and Broadcasting. This is not my visit to Pakistan, rather I am here to attend the SAARC meeting as a minister. So, I didn't discuss bilateral issues before leaving India nor will I here. PTV: I do agree with you. It is right in the light of the procedural point of view. The SAARC meeting had been postponed in past years due to the relations being embittered. India said that there are no favorable conditions and the SAARC conference can't be held. Minister (I&B): No. See, everything was altogether different in Kathmandu. The P.M. himself went back to India from Kathmandu to take a decision. He initiated one thing, so why should we talk about the past whether it had been so or otherwise? The SAARC forum must be free to hold a meeting anywhere. We should participate in it wherever it is held. PTV: What has happened earlier will not be repeated, at least with reference to SAARC. Minister (I&B): No. Not at all. PTV: The People of Pakistan want me to ask you as to when the Indian Govt. will withdraw its army from the border. Minister (I&B): Again, you are rehashing the same thing. PTV: But we are yet to attend the SAARC meeting. We are just sitting in the T.V. Studio and are reflecting the feelings of the people. Minister (I&B): I would again like to say that this is beyond the objective of my visit. If you insist on it, I would like to say that the forces have not been deployed on the border without reason or rhyme. It is not an ordinary decision to deploy forces on the border. There must have been critical conditions under which the forces had been deployed. Now, the question is whether there is some change in the conditions. PTV: How did it all happen and why? Minister (I&B): It is crystal clear. It goes without saying. Whatever happened after the 13th December - one after another, would alarm any country to be vigilant enough to ensure the national security. If the forces have been deployed on account of these, the forces may be withdrawn provided that the conditions are congenial and conducive. If there is some agreeable change in the condition, no one would like to deploy the forces on the border. PTV: What situation are you talking about? We would like to know. Please speak explicitly. Minister (I&B): Speaking openly and explicitly too has its restrictions. I am a minister and am airing my views on the TV channel of a foreign country, this too is a binding and restriction for me. I am not here for bilateral talks so I can't transgress the limit. Still, I have said that the Indian Govt. has asked the Pakistani Govt. for certain issues: we gave a list of men and demanded that Pakistan hand them over to us; we demanded that cross border terrorism be eliminated and asked the Pakistan Govt. to ban intrusions and infiltration. The relations have been embittered on account of certain reasons and in order to mend the severed relationship, the condition has to be made conducive and congenial. If the ground situations are agreeably changed, the forces will be withdrawn from the border and the relationship will be renewed and maintained. Thus, such meaningless decisions .... PTV: Should not be taken. All right. You mentioned two things: the list of 20 persons and intrusion. To my information, state if it is wrong, most of the names given in the list are not at all directly linked with the present conditions and situations. Such conditions have been prevalent for last 15 to 20 years. So far as other names are concerned, some of them were in your custody but you filed no suit against them. Now people ask as to why this was not raised earlier. Minister (I&B): I do not want to go in details of these things. It does not mean that I have no answer to this question. I do have but, as I have already said, I am here on a visit to attend the SAARC meeting, whatever I spoke here is a token discussion. One can't discuss these things on the TV channel. If you want to discuss it at length, adopt the right way and use the right forum. There are some other things too for which the Indian govt. has asked the Pakistani Govt. for action. The Pakistani Govt. verbally committed itself to be doing the same. But mere lip service does not do. One has to do at least part of what one has committed oneself to do wholly. PTV: Who will be judge? Who will say if the things committed verbally have been accomplished or not. Minister (I&B): Naturally, the same country. PTV: Pakistan says that it is doing. Minister (I&B): Let me know what Pakistan did. PTV: Who will be the judge? See, every thing needs evidence. One party labels charges against the other party and vice versa. But there must be an arbitrator. There is no other solution to the problem other than appointing an arbitrator. If India says something, Pakistan answers. But India says that it is wrong. And Pakistan sticks to it because it believes that it is right and justified. Now, who will decide as to which of the two countries is right. Minister (I&B): You are again mistaken in your approach to the issues you should be aware of the fact that once India and Pakistan decided not to have any arbitrator. There would be no third party mediation because they would solve their problems through bilateral discussion. Now there is no need of an arbitrator. If we put forth certain ways to initiate a discussion, it sounds good. If you ask us to do some thing, only you have to scrutinize our response. There is no need of an arbitrator. PTV: Correct. But we have also witnessed something contrary to the decision. India took the problem of terrorism to America before Bush, Clinton and many other forums of the world. Does not it sound ironical, if we say that there is no arbitrator between India and Pakistan? Minister (I&B):It is good that you raised this issue. There is a striking difference between terrorism issue and that of Kashmir. We will solve mutual problems through bilateral discussion. We took up cross border terrorism at the international level and there is a positive and efficacious response. Pakistan was also a party in coalition in this regard where terrorism was condemned in strongest sense by Secretary of State Colin Powell, the European Union, Russia, China, France, Britain and so on . Terrorism is an international problem. There is a global coalition for fighting and eliminating it. It is no bilateral issue. PTV: It means that you will decide as to which issue you will take to the international forum and which one you will decide through bilateral discussion. Minister (I&B): No, I won't. The then Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan decided it through bilateral discussion. I am just repeating it. Take Shimla. The then Prime Minister of both the countries sat together in Lahore and Shimla. Governments do change, here as well as in India. And some government or other stays in power. If something has been decided by the previous government, the present govt. must abide by it, must make it functional and operative. PTV: It means that the human role is mentioned in both Shimla as well as Lahore. Minister (I&B): Yes it is. But I believe that you are drifting in a different direction. PTV: But it is not that important an issue. Minister (I&B): To me it is important, this is why I believe that terrorism and our bilateral issues are two different things. Terrorism is an international problem. And the credit must go to India that did a lot for getting it included in the international agenda. Now there is a global coalition to fight and end terrorism. This is an answer to your question whether I'll decide. I have nothing to decide. I am repeating what my predecessors said, what the past government did and what our present government is doing in consonance with these decisions. Bilateral relations will be decided through bilateral discussion. There are two cornerstones: Shimla agreement and Lahore declaration. Decisions were taken together by these two countries, not by me. PTV: But there is another realistic point of view to be kept in mind. This is what I am saying, one party says that it has done such and such things but the other party says that it has not done anything. As a result one million forces have been deployed and there is an outbreak of uncontrollable fury and violence. People say that it has become the flash point and nucleus acceleration may occur any time. I am talking about perception. But we if we stick to it that no arbitrator will allow to mediate, nothing substantial may be done or initiated. Minister (I&B): It is good for both the countries that they decided that there would be no arbitrator. It is really bad for you to allow the third party mediator. If the problem is going to be solved, it will be through bilateral discussion only. So, you should advise your government. not to make a mistake of having an arbitrator. The third party belongs to none of the two main parties, thus it is indifferent to them and is for no good to any party. It does not matter much if the problem is stretched, lingers on. Under all circumstances, we have to decide on our own. As far as your statement 'One party says that it has done such and such things but the other party, says that nothing has yet been ' is concerned something substantial done can't be concealed. It will be observed by one and all because it is a ground reality. PTV: Who will tell? Minister (I&B): It will be visible to every mind's eye. Situations will themselves bear witness. It is not something abstract. One can't have the temerity to claim that one has done such and such thing without having really done. PTV: How many people of India go to Kashmir and how many of them infiltrate, give us some statistics here. Minister (I&B): Statistics. PTV: You are of the opinion that it is concrete. Minister (I&B): Needless to say. The government have all statistics. It is also needless to mention the statistics on the T.V. channel. PTV: You just talked about statistics but you say that you do not carry. Minister (I&B): No, I do not have now. I was not aware of it that you would ask me such a question. But I am sure, the government do have the statistics of about two years. They have also exchanged the same. PTV: Do you mean to say that what ever is happening in Kashmir is breed by Pakistan? Minister (I&B): It will be better by far, if we steer our discussion to other issues. Initially I told you not to discuss these things because I know that my answers will sound harsh. Your question is quite straight forward but my answer to this question will sound rather curt. PTV: Let the answer come. Minister (I&B): No, I wont. It is a breach of code of conduct to answer curtly while I am a guest here. Besides, it will also be a breach of India's code of conduct. We had better move to some other issue. PTV: Our act of turning to some other issues will not solve the problem. Minister (I&B): Problems will surely be solved. The government will sit together. But they will not be solved within thirty minutes as we are sitting here. PTV: If the problems are confined and related to governments, they must solve them on their own. But here we are talking of the whole region where fifth of this humanity lives. Whatever happens between India and Pakistan affects our lives. We see millions of them. If we believe that every thing will be resolved by the government, then why at all it has not been solved within the span of 54 years. Every step has been taken: pacts were made, there were bilateral discussions as well; ministers also had their rounds, Gen. Zia also did the diplomacy; committees were constituted but nothing substantial was done. Still one million forces are deployed on the border. Minister (I&B): Your first sentence refers to our good relationship. There will be no question of bilateral forum, if we have no good relationship. But it is not correct. Why were the bilateral issues removed from SAARC charter? It was done so because such issues may embitter the relationship to the core and there will be no regional co-operation. Those people were not at all dense. They were farsighted and wise ones. This is why they did not club the regional co-operation forum with bi-lateral issues and the problems. You can't club these two, if you wish success in your attempt. We will not be able to discuss other things when you say that the charter of SAARC is redundant I do not feel that we are here for declaring it redundant. I do not feel that we are given to believe that bilateral contention and issues may be found in every region, not only between Pakistan and India. It may arise in Nepal, in Bangladesh, sometimes amongst themselves. There is no violence to mention here. We have already mentioned the problems. If we believe in the sentence you spoke in the beginning, we will prove that SAARC is redundant. PTV: I had some stories to exemplify. So I spoke in their light. And there is no denying the fact that the summit was postponed again I talked to other minister as well, for example, the minister of Bangladesh who was of the view that first they should solve their problems on their own. We do not speak publicly. Privately we should decide and solve our problems. Only then can the SAARC be furthered. This is why I spoke such a sentence. Now tell me the solution to the Kashmir problem. Minister (I&B):Again the same issue. PTV: What is the solution? Minister (I&B): No, not at all. I have been answering your questions but now I plead to change the topic of the discussion. It is not at all apt to discuss this issue here and now. PTV: You would not like to discuss it today? Minister (I&B):I am not here to discuss this issue. PTV: What to discuss then? Minister (I&B):Talk about SAARC and other issues. You have an inkling regarding the subjects and issues to be discussed. PTV: The issues and topics that I have got are the ones pooled from the public for the sake of feedback. According to the feedback I should ask those questions which arise in the minds of the people. These questions defy answers. I thought to be fruitfully benefited today from you. But do not want to talk on these topics. Let me know how you will further the SAARC programmes. Minister (I&B):Take today's meeting. It was in a congenial atmosphere. The best thing is that all the decisions were unanimously taken. There was no dissension at all. Bilateral contentious issues of Pakistan and India did not at all find a mention. The issues discussed will not be decided tomorrow in the light of the relations between India and Pakistan. PTV: Will it be implemented? Minister (I&B):If it is not implemented, it is meaningless to hold a discussion. PTV: Our airplanes do not go to India. Pakistan is not authorized to air India's T.V. channel. There are restrictions on visas. The decisions and established issues are not implemented and you are now talking about regional visions. Minister (I&B): Again you jumped at bilateral contentious issues. PTV: These are realities. Minister (I&B): These are the realities but ………….. PTV: You don't want to talk about it. Minister (I&B): SAARC came into existence in presence of these realities. Those who constituted SAARC were directly related to these realities but they constituted SAARC so that other issues may also be dealt and discussed in a congenial atmosphere. It also helped a lot in the creation of congenial atmosphere. As already mentioned, some issues other than these were also discussed. These are not today's problems. As mentioned by you, they have been lurking for last 54 years. Now tell me, when was SAARC constituted? It means that all issues were there when the SAARC was constituted. It was recorded in its Charter that bilateral contentious issues will not be discussed. The SAARC Charter remains intact without any amendment in relation to discussion of bilateral issues. PTV: To my mind, the SAARC could not realize its full potential because it has……….. . How can one receive information and exchange views? Those who do not move from one country to another will not be able to talk about exchanges. How will the information flow? From where will the regional information order come? So, I believe that finally bilateral issues will be the points of discussion. It does not matter whether you discuss them today or not. Minister (I&B): Bilateral is not the point at issue. If bilateral issues are to be discussed there must be some amendments in the SAARC Charter. And it will be decided by the members of the summit. One may talk about it when the Charter is amended and expanded. In the presence of these things, as issues were raised here today…. Everyone was of the view that it must be so. There must be general consensus among all the countries concerned to impart training. If we believe in its potential, we'll need skilled manpower. There was a discussion regarding the website on the resources of each SAARC country so that SAARC countries may be aware of one another's resources. There had been a good deal of discussion regarding co-operation in commercial sector. Decisions will be taken tomorrow. Your Minister for Information and Broadcasting, who presided over today's meeting, will read out the decisions. PTV: There is a difference between what you hear and what happens. We have seen that the SAARC's entire potential has become paralyzed because bi-lateral relations between two major countries are not normal. We do not talk of that today. Let us discuss regional issues. Minister (I&B): No, let me tell you first that I do not agree with what you are saying. And do not put such a big question mark on implementation……………. No doubt the way the past few years have passed has shown us that the potential of SAARC has been lowered. However, the initiatives taken in Kathmandu are worth noticing. And I feel that the decisions taken by us are well thought over decisions, and you will see their implementation as well. PTV: Let us talk of regional peace. Serious doubts are being expressed world over about the regional security of South Asia. Where has your government stood on regional peace. Minister (I&B):It is not just today. India's commitment to peace is quite undiminished. Look! India is known as a peaceful nation. We gave the principle of non-violence to the whole world. It deeply shocks me if one talks to us by pointing a finger at India's peaceful character. PTV: You have even told the first meaning of South Asia. Minister (I&B): And what did I say subsequently? PTV: That peaceful means yourself. Minister (I&B): Not peaceful. Even after that, what I talked. As far as the question of becoming nuclear is concerned, even at that time, Atalji had clarified that it was a must (inevitable) to become nuclear, in view of our national security needs. But who did speak about the purchases? Just tell me one thing: nuclear bomb was developed in May, but who took the initiative of going to Lahore in February? This was just to show … PTV: You will make a nuclear bomb and will simultaneously make a journey for peace? Minister (I&B): He came personally to say that even after becoming nuclear there was not even the slightest rupture in our clear commitment to peace. Yes, to say this and tell the world what a strange thing was happening. The two countries had become nuclear and scared of each other. However, (India), being larger, took the lead. Give me an example of such an initiative ever taken in the world. There are several nuclear club members. Did any of them take such a step? Our commitment to peace has not diminished. To clearly demonstrate this, the Indian Prime Minister came over here. PTV: Commitment is an expression of action and the action to nuclearise the region was taken by India. Minister (I&B): No. But through actions he showed his commitment to peace also. But in spite of being in possession of nuclear bomb his arrival here to talk peace is something important. The Lahore Declaration was India's first step forward. But of no avail! If we had stuck with you in Kargil, what would have been the result? PTV: A bit of Kargil. We ourselves ask to talk about Kashmir and resolve the issue. Minister (I&B): This is not the forum between you and me to discuss such matters. PTV: You talk of regional example. They say India is undoubtedly a champion of the cause of peace. And you have just spoken about actions. Lately, the recent defence budget witnessed a sharp increase. Arms deals with Russia were signed and talks with America about arms were held. Missiles were also fired. Just tell me who is posing a threat to India?  Minister (I&B): It is not a question of threat alone. It is a question of national security. And it has its own perspective. Security needs have to be fulfilled in that perspective. If one is talking about world peace, one has some acceptance… Because he is a part of whole system. According to a couplet in Hindi by poet Dinakarji, you have the right to ask for pardon, only if you are strong. If you are not strong enough, you cannot talk of pardon and peace. If you are not mustering strength you are not talking of peace. .. PTV: So, India wants to become powerful. Minister (I&B): Not only India but all countries want to become powerful. But if you talk of peace with power it shows that you are powerful. Talking of peace without power demonstrates your weakness. What we are saying is that despite being powerful our commitment to peace has shown no sign of decline. PTV: The expression of rights is present in a concrete form while peace is manifested in words. Minister (I&B): Not in words but in action. This I am repeatedly saying. Do not stop with the bomb alone. Remember the Lahore trip following the nuclear test. On the one hand there is action of might while, on the other, it was an action of peace. Not in words, it is rather in actions. It is an unprecedented initiative taken by the PM who himself came here (Lahore) to embrace Nawaz Sharif. Not a Prime Minister from Pakistan has ever visited India so far. Our stepping into Pakistan is itself a testimony to our acceptance of Pakistan and which has been also recorded. The Declaration was made here but it is another thing that the conditions worsen after the return. But in our country…………. PTV: President Musharraf went to Agra despite severe strains. What happened at Agra? Minister (I&B): Now if you would like to analyze the entire episode of Agra. Your team might have analyzed it. PTV: Yes I observed it remotely. I was away from the…….. Even that's why I could always near objectivity in some people’s opinion Agra is the biggest disaster for Pak as it was not even expected that an agreement will be reached with Pakistan. The agreement was about to be signed. Mr. President says that just the chairs were put there and no success was achieved. ….. what happened at Agra. Minister (I&B): why should I go to all such (details)…….. PTV: One minute. If you are talking of Agra why not to talk of Lahore. Minister (I&B): That is what I am saying. We had taken the initiative on Agra. I would like to talk of Agra because it was initiated by us alone. The unilateral initiative on cessation of hostilities was also ours. I had stayed in Lahore… PTV: Why did you not enter an agreement? Minister (I&B): If you will become obdurate and say that it is a core dispute it will have to be brought to the table and no mention will be made of cross border terrorism. And on that too these will be a dispute today. As you just said whenever negotiations have taken place it needed the participation of both the sides. PTV: Is it not a fact that some ministers, your minister of ………… affairs. He said that it will be given for typing within 15 minutes and perhaps is ready for signatures… Is it not a fact? Minister (I&B):It is what you have been told? PTV: Talk of your own Minister (I&B): What I have been told is that it is not correct. Where these two things will lead us. PTV: Near Kolhapur………. Minister (I&B): Where will we go upto? What I am saying is that if you talk of Agra, I had stopped at Lahore, as I did not want to move further. But if you are talking of peace initiative, let’s go ahead. Look, in spite of Kargil, we extended ceasefire. Although in the usual sense it was not a cease-fire, it was a peace initiative, which was extended several times. After all, Agra initiative, following unilateral cessation of hostilities, was India's own peace initiative. PTV: It is said that the hawks in the Indian Cabinet undermined it.  Minister (I&B): All such things have been wrongly by said and you are misinformed. We have no difference between hawks and moderate. There are self-conceived notions that in the cabinet there are some hawks and some moderates. You put the labels of hawks and moderate on people on your own accord. But I, as an Indian minister, tell you that we are unanimous. At Agra the whole Indian delegation was unanimous. There was no destructions of hawks and moderate. No difference there was among us. PTV: It was Pakistan who insisted at Agra on not touching the core issue of Kashmir and Terrorism. Minister (I&B): Yes. Right you are PTV: The unsigned paper of Agra Declaration we have its page 2 contains. Minister (I&B): Better if you do not read that as I won’t be able to reply. PTV: No! The mention of terrorism in it. ..... Minister (I&B): No ! Once you said that it is unsigned. Now how could I know what kind of document you are holding. PTV: Shall I show to viewers a false document over TV. Minister (I&B):No! It is not the question of false or true. (Mr. Talat Hussein was trying to read the paper while Sushma Swaraj was interrupting him not to read the paper) PTV: Jammu and Kashmir. _____ Minister (I&B):It is not the question of false and true. I do not know which document you are reading. PTV: Jammu and Kashmir, Peace and security terrorism and drugs. Minister (I&B):No! Why shall you read? Why. It is say you have fabricated it. It is not that document. What will you say? I say that I don’t know the paper you are reading. Who knows what sort of document has been handed to you. What are you reading? Diplomacy necessitates it that every comma and full stop of a signed paper.... and also I will tell you that you are scores of rough drafts before the main draft. All these drafts preceding it are redundant. I do not know which of the redundant drafts you are reading. If nothing was signed, there, then it is a fact that there was no draft on which both the countries had unanimity. PTV: How will things move forward now? Minister (I&B): What we have expected it should reflect in ground reality, as there being a change on the ground. Things can move on only after that PTV: Would you define change? What this is? Minister (I&B):I won’t define. The Pakistani government knows what I want to say about change. They know every thing. PTV: It is the stand of Pakistan government. You have, no doubt, provided a list, not the evidence. Minister (I&B): Again you are referring to the list and insisting on evidence I say that whatever is conveyed to you or to me is not the same as it really is. PTV: Then what? Minister (I&B):It is the Foreign Office. It is in touch with the Foreign Office. They know every thing what we expect from them. We had given them everything in writing. They also know that they have done nothing about that. If something on the ground changes, certainly a change will be visible. PTV: What will happen if you suppose that there is a change? Minister (I&B):I am not an astrologer to forecast the future for you. There are forums for this. When there will be a formal response and it will appear in written form then the things will move on along it and they are ultimately bound to move together, amidst stagnation and hurdles and progress. All these things there have been. These stages I have enumerated. There are many a stages from the bomb to this day. There is Lahore trip after the nuclear bomb. And the Lahore trip is followed by Kargil which is, in turn, followed by uniform moratorium of hostilities. Then comes the invitation for Agra summit. Then there is 13 December and the happenings of 13 December. And deployment of army. But things do not stop at a point. If it does not stop, it is al right. It moves on when the obstruction is a little off the way. PTV: Sushmaji you have rightly said that there is a stalemate. The things may perhaps progress further but they must have a mechanism.  Minister (I&B):I know this PTV: After all it is not a magic wand Minister (I&B): There is no magic wand PTV: You do not have even your high commissioner in Islamabad Minister (I&B): Nor I am talking of magic wand but of hard realities ..... people of both sides know. Pakistani government knows. Just call Pakistan's foreign minister in my place and ask him what are India’s expectations. What have they expected from you. Why don't you reciprocate? PTV: Ask them these questions only if they could like to respond. We are responding to that Sushmaji but ................ look in legal debate ... . The matter is that when there are conflicting views one has to play that part of a judge you are not according acceptance to the judge. Your say that you will discuss common issues later on. Minister (I&B): None is needed to play judge. I again tell you that people do not need to see on TV what Minister (I&B): Swaraj is saying. What is PTV: asking. Soon after that they will step forward do take action. PTV: Please would you tell, before leaving, our viewers what is the political future of the BJP. We have analysed thoroughly and seen that BJP was badly beaten in the elections and the results were opposite to what was expected. No. Perhaps we should not use the word 'beaten'. Minister (I&B): You may use that word PTV: How do your look at the future Minister (I&B): Future is very clear & bright. India is vast country with so many states and democracy. There are elections and when these are election are in a democracy, victory is a part of every election. We have witnessed the days when we were only two members in the Indian Parliament, then the number rose up subsequently to 87, 112 and 182 and today we are the biggest party are in power. In India the congress was swept away 1977 and came back in 1980. This is an integral feature of elections. We have seen defeat and victory so many times and will see it in future too. Defeat is followed by victory and vice versa. See it has not put a question mark on our future. PTV: All the Indian analysts are giving wrong statements  Minister (I&B): What are they saying PTV: That BJP's future is not bright. Minister (I&B): Media men have written or lot about a number of persons. In 1977 following the defeat of Mrs. Gandhi. They wrote she had come back.... after complete 2/2 years. They wrote about us when we were away and Rajiv Gandhi become victorious with-403 He said that an end has been put to not only BJP but to all opposition parties. 403 wale Rajiv Gandhi was defeated in the next elections. Therefore, just see that in a democratic country such things will not happen. I ponder over on this point and pray God for the change of government through democratic and electoral process at least in India. PTV: But some say the happenings in Gujarat are an insult to democracy that...... Minister (I&B):I was on the verge of saying that none can say anything else on this issue. Our PM has himself said that all this is quite painful to the extent of the loss of our VSP. We used to proudly say that during our three-year rule there took place no communal riot. But the riots that have taken place have emerged as a black spot. However, there is an element of satisfaction also. PTV: What are the responsibilities of BJP. They say there is a chief minister of hardliner BJP who is behind all these happenings and encouraging the trouble. Minister (I&B): Let me first tell you that this is not true but wrong and secondly, it was the same BJP chief minister' who controlled the riots within 40-48 hours. That is why if any credit is to be given to BJP it is of controlling the riots earlier. PTV: 1200 people were burnt alive and still you are giving credit (to BJP) Minister (I&B): No, No. It is the credit of bringing the situation under control soon. PTV: 1200 Minister (I&B): Killing of only a single person is in itself shocking. The dead should not be counted. If even a single person is killed and that too in riots it is a black spot for us. That is why I am not counting the dead but rather saying that I have admitted that its is a black spot for us. There is something about which we can express satisfaction. Riots have taken place in this country even earlier. But they have been controlled comparatively earlier and it is the BJP chief minister who has controlled, I am saying so. Therefore if you see the facts you see both-the sides. That riots broke out there is in itself wrong. There were casualties in the riots, it is worse. Godhra is at fault and the people of Gujarat who killed later in violence are also at fault. Both are guilty. But we have a sense of satisfaction that the situation was brought under control soon. PTV: Sushma Swarajji we are highly thankful to you for attending this programme. We had a lot to speak to you but for want of time. See you again Minister (I&B): Sure. PTV: Thank you very much Source: Ministry Of External Affairs, India